Patrick Dempsey Reimagines Cancer Care

[MUSIC PLAYING] Hello. I'm Dr. John Whyte, and I'm the chief medical officer of WebMD. When it comes to treatment for cancer, you just can't treat the disease. It's crucial to treat the entire individual, including the caregivers who support them. Quite frankly, we need to do a better job in addressing the physical and emotional needs of individuals affected by cancer, but also their families. We don't see or hear that enough.

Today's guest is at the forefront of a transformative approach. Many of you know Patrick Dempsey for his iconic roles onscreen. But we're going to dive into a different aspect of his life-- his inspiring work with the Dempsey Center. I recently traveled to Lewiston, Maine, to sit down with Patrick and hear about his own family's cancer journey. This journey made him recognize the huge gaps in cancer care, prompting him to embark on a mission to revolutionize it. The goal? Empowering individuals to live well beyond their diagnosis.

Patrick shared the reasoning behind the Dempsey Center's choice of the word client over patient. And he articulated a rationale as to why he believes a supportive community can have a significant impact on outcomes. Over the course of the day together, we sampled nutrition and fitness classes, explored the benefits of massage and acupuncture, witnessed the personal touch wigs and headwear can have, and even enjoyed yoga sessions with children and the delightful Dempsey dogs. It's hard not to smile when you see those dogs.

Patrick provided me the blueprint for how one can replicate his team's work anywhere around the world. As a physician, this experience reshaped my perspective on cancer care. And I'm confident that, after watching this, you too will think about a more holistic and renewed approach for cancer care.

Well, Patrick, thanks for joining me.

Thanks for being here, number one. And it's a real honor to be talking to you.

Millions know you through your acting roles on television and in movies, but many people don't know about your involvement with cancer.

Right.

And taking care of the persons with cancer and their families. So tell us about the Dempsey Center.

Well, the Dempsey Center was inspired by my mother's battle and my family's sort of impact with cancer. And that really was how it started. Like, what can we do to help support my mother? What's in our community here in Lewiston-Auburn, where we're taping today? Is there anything that's complementary medicine? Not just treating the disease, but treating the person.

And that's how it started. So that's what we do here. We don't treat the disease. We treat the person holistically. And we simply ask them, how can we make your life better? Not only for the person who's been diagnosed with cancer, but the entire family. And that can encompass the caregivers, children, grandparents, partners, you name it. We're there for them, the whole thing.

Because you've talked about her battle with cancer, ovarian cancer, and you've often talked about that she got great care for the disease.

Yes.

But she didn't get enough support. What was lacking?

Well, I think the type of support that we do here is really kind of emerging. And even your awareness for this is, like, this is a whole field that I think needs to be developed. And you need to talk about the emotional and psychological support for a patient because there's so much downtime between getting the diagnosis that you have cancer, all of what that brings up for the patient and for the family and for your community, and what do you do in that two to three to four-week period before the test results come back?

What can we do to get in there and be strong with you emotionally? And also, how do you fuel yourself? What are you putting into your body to give you the strength to really kind of attack this in sort of a wraparound way?

I want to read you a quote from an interview you did a few years back--

OK.

--when you founded the Dempsey Center in 2008.

OK.

And you said, "we wanted it to feel like a hug. We all want to be hugged."

Right.

"We all want to be loved."

Yeah.

"And I think that's why we're all here ultimately-- how do we take care of each other?"

Right. Well, I think this is what we're really lacking in the world right now, this sense of community. Certainly in New England, it was always about community, right? You had to have community to survive. You're farming. You need to rely on each other.

But you need your independence, which is a very big part of the American psyche. But at the same time, we need to be loved, and we need to be supported, and we need to be held when we're vulnerable. We need to feel safe.

But do we think about that when someone's diagnosed with cancer? We're so focused on how do we manage the disease, how do we make sure they get the best care, which we define as regression of the cancer, regression of cancer cells. Is there a mismatch?

But see how cold that is when you express it in that manner? And I think it--

I don't know if it's cold, I'd say, as a doctor.

I think it's coming from the science point of view, which is very important. We need the science. But where's the humanity? Where's the connection to the patient, in a way? And we're asking a patient to be patient-- this is the irony-- and to trust in someone. And--

But you say it's the whole family.

But no, there's a great moment for me in my mother's journey, what happened-- and I think this will illustrate your point-- is that she had a really good doctor at one of the teaching universities. Really good. But she was like, I don't want him to work on me. I want to go back to Lewiston-Auburn and have the doctor take care of me because she takes time with my questions. I'm just not a number. And this was a very good doctor that we had recommended and was recommended to us. But it was in his approach and his dealings with his patients that were not empowering her. It wasn't making her feel safe.

So I think this is the thing that we need to focus on, is that relationship between the doctor in a way where there's the humanity. And how do you get a doctor to have that compassion, right? Because they're dealing with so much. So we also have to work with the psychological aspect and the emotional aspect of our doctors, as well. They need the hug. They're overwhelmed. The nurses, all of this. You need to start to think about the psychological and the social aspect of it, of healing.

And you focus on the entire family and caregiver network. So it's not just the patient. It's also their spouses, their family members--

Right, which is what we call the youth and family dynamic, which is where we take care of the kids, and they have their peer group that they can communicate with. Also caregivers, it's very important that they get the right understanding and there's a sympathetic ear listening to what their needs are. And how do we support them? Because they're there on the front line day to day getting people to these appointments and listening to what the doctors are saying and writing those things down in order to be able to process and do the right next step.

But you also use the word client, as opposed to patient. And I found that fascinating. Nomenclature matters. So why do you choose the word client?

We're of service to them, right? So we simply ask the question, what can we do to make your life better? And then you have to be prepared for the answer. And then we try to put a package together of treatments that are going to empower them and to make them feel good, because if they start listening to themselves, that's going to give them the energy and the focus, right?

So not questioning what your instinct-- your body knows what to do. And if you take the time through some of the meditation practices or through yoga or even through nutrition, what we're putting into our system is going to affect us mentally and emotionally. So putting all those things together will help that client really understand what they need to be able to listen to themselves, to be able to listen to your body tell you what to do.

You focus a lot on mental and emotional health of folks. And I want to go over some of the services. I was on your site, and we did a tour. You do nutritional support, fitness classes. You have what I love, the pet therapy with the Dempsey dogs.

See? Because it makes you smile right away--

It does.

--when you have a dog--

These dogs are cute.

They're great. They're amazing dogs. And it just makes people feel safe, right? So we're here in this old mill. Lewiston-Auburn used to be major manufacturing turn of the century and the Industrial Revolution. That went away, but we have these beautiful old pieces of architecture that are warm. I mean, look at the material that we have around us. You see the wood. You see the bricks. It's cozy. And it's very much like having the dog. You want that sense of being home and feeling safe.

But do those things impact outcomes, in terms of quality of life--

Absolutely.

--survival?

Yes, because we need to quantify our success.

Right before we started, you said, we need data, John. Yeah.

Well, you have to have the data, right, in order to prove it scientifically. So everything is science based here, so we're going to sort of figure out how to calculate that response, of how are you feeling coming in, prior to the use of our services, to after your rotation through our services, and things like that. And you can see a quantifiable way to read that and a way to talk to you, a doctor, or to the science side of it.

You offer all of these services at no cost--

Right.

--virtually and in person.

Yeah. I know.

Just some data that I found fascinating, last year, in general, it's about 12,000 visits, 1,500 people, 25 different types of cancer. Why do you do this at no cost?

Because it needs to be done, number one. I think it should go hand in hand, as soon as someone is diagnosed with cancer. We're in a place right now where everything is so expensive and everything is about the bottom line. Look at-- our hospitals are dealing with these issues.

This is less expensive than drug therapy.

It is. And it's like, you're doing something that you can feel the benefit of it, and it's supported by our community, right? We do our fundraising. We have our corporate sponsors, our local and national sponsors that make it possible.

But it's like PBS. It's like, it's owned by the public, and in order to be able to provide these services at no cost to the client and to their family.

Yeah.

But, see, we're back into the community again.

But people think of this, though, as these services are great, but they're a nice-to-have and not a must-have. And you're really arguing that these need to be--

A must-have.

From the beginning.

Absolutely.

But they're not.

No, they're not.

So why aren't they?

I think it's awareness, number one. I think it's also getting a better communication with our doctors and our healthcare providers. Our nurses are the front line. I think the nurses pretty much know everything, so we need to make sure that they are aware of what we're doing.

And they do a much better job than the doctors. The doctors, we need to convince them. We need to show them and be able to communicate them in a language that they'll accept and respect, and that's our responsibility. And that's what we're trying to do, and this is our mission, is to really spread the gospel, if you will, of this type of care, because it should go hand in hand.

So this is a small town. You're a celebrity. Let's just put that out there. Is this replicable throughout the country?

Absolutely, and we want to be able to connect with other like-minded centers that are already existing. I think a lot of them come from the same experience that I had and what my family had and what we had gone through with my mother's diagnosis, is that they see that this is lacking in their community and they start it. The real trouble is, once the person has passed away or the family has lost the energy, how do you keep that going?

And that's when you need to treat it professionally and bring in the right team and the board, and who you're hiring and what your staff is, make sure they're qualified and they're professional and they are science based. And then I think we can do this, and we just need the right voices and the right attention and to be able to use my platform. People are already perceiving me as a "doctor" anyway. What a great way to use that platform in a positive way.

What do they need to hear? What's your message to those folks that say, you know what, Patrick, we need to spend money, more money on research, we need to spend money on what's that precision medicine and personalized therapy, do these really make a difference?

And there was an article today in the paper about doctors and how they perform the surgery to extract those tumors in a way that's less invasive. We need all of it. I think it's part of a team, right? You have a basketball team or a soccer team or something like that, everybody has their role. Everybody has their position to play, and we're part of that team.

I want to talk about this concept of survivorship that you've been very interested in discussing, that I don't think that we focus enough on, and really this premise that, why did I survive and someone else didn't, or the stress of, how long is this cancer-free period going to last? Back to this mental health aspect, how do we deal with the concept of survivorship, and what is Dempsey Center doing?

Well, this is something we can continue to improve upon, but you're getting people that are getting in, they're getting tested, they're getting diagnosed earlier, and then they're surviving, and then you do have this survivor's guilt. My mother had that. She's like, why am I still here after so many treatments? She had 12 recurrences.

Wow.

And she felt better if she could come back in and share her knowledge and her experience with someone who was newly diagnosed, and I think that's a healing process. And we have a program in place for people who are survivors and thriving, and they have a place to put that energy. But you never know if it's going to come back, and that's where you need to really focus on the mental aspect and the psychological aspect and the support groups that would help be able to get that out into the open, because I do feel, psychologically, and we have studies on this, that that energy goes into your cells, and that could mutate and cause a cancer.

So we have to be looking at all of those aspects, and that's part of our prevention, which was another question that you had. But how do we support them? How do we listen to them? How do we help eliminate those fears and those anxieties?

But small towns-- like we're here today-- have this greater sense of community. You know your neighbors. You know their names. I mean, in urban areas, people may not even know who lives next door, and that's an important component of everything that you're talking about today.

So when you look at what's happening in the United States, are you optimistic? Are you concerned about this ability? Right, because all of this is premised on the concept of a community, wanting to be loved and hugged, and having that extension of yourself.

I think we have a cancer in our society in the way we are so divisive. We are a house divided. We are not working together. Are you coming at it from a place that is all about one's self, or do you really care about taking care of your constituents and your communities? Is there something that we can learn from an opposing attitude without it becoming our identity?

Well, what's your message to doctors, big cancer centers, community cancer clinics, that-- there's limited time, there's limited resources, why should we do these things that you're talking about? Just to play devil's advocate, what's your message?

It will ultimately save money in the long run, so if you want to look at it from a cynical point of view, if we start to do these programs, you're going to save money.

I don't want to be cynical. [LAUGHS]

But it is. I mean, but it is. I mean, we have a lot of population on the coast, but inland it's less so. And we're seeing this across the country, these regional hospitals are going away, so we have to be able to communicate and use our technology and to take care of the people. We're not taking care of our people.

Yeah. Have you always been interested in this mind-body connection, this Western-Eastern approach, or is it something that's evolved since your mother's cancer diagnosis?

I think it's a combination of the two. It's always something that I was seeking as a young man. I found the answers that I was looking for in a church or a formalized religion wasn't reaching me. It wasn't something that affected me in a way where, you look at Buddhism or stoicism and things like that, or even just meditation, it's more of a philosophy, it's more of a science, that you can see, you can feel it. It's something that's, I think, made a better impact for me, of dealing with the world, dealing with myself and my insecurities, and my confidence, keeping it balanced.

Like, even before we started, I just simply remembered to breathe and to be present and to listen to what you have to say and to be aware of the people around me. It will keep me in the moment and will take the anxiety away or take pressure away, because you're present, and that's the hardest thing to remember. And these aren't values that we're teaching our children, right, and this is what we can do here.

We can start to implement those tools if someone wants to do it. And is there value in it? Is their life improving? Then, hopefully, people can use it.

But you've also talked about-- to go back to how we started, with your mother's cancer diagnosis-- you've talked about that your mother has always impressed upon you to give back to your community, do not forget about where you came from. Has that always played a significant role? Because there's lots of things that you could be doing with your time.

There's lots of good causes. Obviously, taking care of families, of people, caregivers with cancer, is critically important, but why this issue? Why this center?

It just unfolded. It presented itself, and this was clearly the path I needed to follow. And these are the values I grew up with here in this community, in the state of Maine.

I think there is a wonderful sense of independence here, but there's also a sense of taking care of your community or being sensitive to that. Giving people space when they want it but, if they need the support, you're immediately there, there's a respect of that. And I think it's just all of the things that I observed and felt and heard growing up. And I think these are the values that are really worldwide, and we just, we need to come back to the basics sometimes.

What's your message to someone who's been recently diagnosed with cancer, or a caregiver who's taking care of someone, or just a family member or a friend who heard that their friend has been diagnosed with cancer? What's the message?

Well, first of all, look in your local community and see if there's a center that's like ours around, and if there isn't, please reach out to us. Go to dempseycenter.org, and hopefully, we can direct you. And we're trying to get a nice nationwide, international network so that if someone does call us, we can recommend and we know that facility, we know that center, and we can recommend it in a way with great confidence. That's part of it, and that's our start. That's what we'd like to do.

You're at a big meeting, national conference of doctors about latest cancer treatments. You're invited as a keynote speaker. What's your message to these doctors who are doing research or treating patients every day? What does Patrick Dempsey have to say to them?

We want to work with you, we want to collaborate with you, and we want to share our information and our science with yours. And how do we best complement the work that we're all doing to provide a better service in a healthier, warmer environment for our clients?

That sounds easy, but it's not.

No.

Because otherwise, we would all be doing that, and we're not doing as much of it as we should.

Right.

So how do we get there? That's a great message.

Well, we need platforms like this. I mean, to be on WebMD is an important thing for us because you have so many people that are coming to your website to get information, and that's what we provide. We're just providing a different type of information, but it's all the same.

So that's one thing, is just getting the message out there. And I'm amazed at how many people are unaware of the type of services that we provide and that it's possible. To me, that, it's shocking because--

I said to you, ahead of time, I wasn't as much aware of it, but why is that? Why should I be more aware of it? Why should our viewers?

I think because we need to have the dialogue. We need to be talking about it. We need to be going into events like the one that we met at in New York, where we can have these conversations. We can say, hey, this is what we've been doing for the last 15 years in our rural community. It's been our laboratory, and now we're in a position to share that and to continue to grow and to expand this type of treatment.

How can people learn more about the Center and support the Center?

Yeah, just go to dempseycenter.org and check out the services that we provide, and let people know that this is out there. And if you're recently diagnosed or a caregiver, ask your doctor, is there anything in the community, is there anything in this hospital that provides these type of services, or can you recommend someone?

Patrick, thanks for taking time today.

Thank you. Thank you very much.

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